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vistawholesale
We received a $300 orders from a buyer in Miami FL. who states:

"We are unable to complete our order because our billing address is in Trinidad & Tobago, Not in USA"

The thing is, they entered this in the Notes section before completing the order. The Credit Card was accepted however, it notes "AVS not available for this card". It does not state the card is an out of USA card.

The flag is not only the Trinidad comment, but the fact the buyer assumed they would have issues with the CC even before the order was finalized. They have offered to fill out a Credit Card Authorization Form.

Order is to ship to a Dept. number (w/ Street Address) in Miami FL.

We are concerned. Any input on this??? Would you ship this order??



Steven
It is likely fraud order as FL Miami in particular is amongst the geographical areas with the most fraud. You can manually verify billing by contacting the issuing bank and require the customer to register the alternative shipping address. Likely when you request the alternative shipping address be registered the client will not comply or just move on to the next sucker.

Good Luck!
bookmark
Would I fill the order?

I think I already did.

We just got an order from a company in Trinidad/Tobago, shipping to Miami, Florida, and we filled it.

I ran all the information through a fraud check (it passed) and I verified as much information as I could. Everything appeared legit.

AVS is not available for credit cards from banks located outside of the United States. That at least tells you that it isn't a stolen US card. (It could be a stolen Trinidad/Tobago card, though.)

If you ask them to register an alternative address, you still won't be able to verify it since their bank is out of the US. You can try calling their bank (international phone call), but it may not be quite what you are used to. I spoke to a man at Visa/MC's fraud department about it once and he said that if you do manage to get someone at the bank to answer the phone (they don't always), they probably won't speak English (or will pretend they don't), or if they do they won't be able to give you the information and won't know who could. Finally, if you do get someone who has the ability to check the information for you, they always tell you everything's fine and the card's okay to accept - even if it isn't.

We don't accept many international orders anymore because we don't like to take the risk. We just decline most of them.

We accepted this one because the man called several times with questions before he placed his order. They were specific questions about the products because he didn't want to order the wrong thing since the cost to ship them is so high, and the products are expensive as well. He was very knowledgable about the products and seemed serious. Not just someone who has a stolen card and wants to go crazy with it.

It could still be fraud, though.


MartiniGuy
QUOTE
Suspect Order, Would You Ship??

Absolutely, positively...no.

QUOTE
He was very knowledgable about the products and seemed serious. Not just someone who has a stolen card and wants to go crazy with it.

Sounds typical of an experienced scammer...all the more reason not to ship.

Please keep in mind, these are only opinions. If it was me, there would be absolutely no question that I would not ship. It sounds way, way too typical (especially the country involved).
smile.gif
leathus
You could ask them to fax or email you a clear image of the front and back of both a photo id and the credit card being used. A nice color emailed image would possibly be the preferred method, one reason being that fax machines can mess us images.

You could tell them you've placed a small Authorization on their card ($0.34, lets say) and require them to tell you what the amount was. This technique presumes that only the rightful user of a credit card will have access to its transaction history. the downside is it can take a couple of days for your Authorization to post so neither he nor his credit card company may see it until then.
MartiniGuy
QUOTE
A nice color emailed image would possibly be the preferred method

Call me crazy, but I could email you a credible picture of me with 3 alien greys, Bigfoot, and a smiling Telly Savalas all wearing plaid skirts in ten minutes time (all holding Am Ex cards with unique numbers).

I think that leathus has a great idea with the "verify what I've charged idea," if they don't have access, they certainly wouldn't be able to verify.

All in all though, considering the details and amount of the potential sale--is all of this really worth it?
I've written this before, and though many have said it, I must say it again: if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's most likely a duck.
smile.gif
srg
QUOTE
I must say it again: if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's most likely a duck.

Agreed. I would not ship.

Set your security standards and then stick to them...don't second guess yourself or ever worry about a lost order.
bookmark
Here's a good article:

http://www.powerhomebiz.com/vol61/efraud.htm

A couple more notes:

1. We have shipped to Trinidad in the past (on our old site) and never had a problem.

2. The customer we had was unable to place his order on our site because our site is not set up to ship there. That is why he requested it be sent to Miami, where it can then be forwarded on to him. Aside from it being an international order, there were no other red flags.

Is your site set up to ship to Trinidad?

While I don't like shipping internationally, and rarely do anymore, I do understand about the problems people in other countries face getting products from the US. My husband's family is in Brazil and they quite frequently order things from companies in the US and have them shipped to our house. (Actually, we've received over four boxes in the past week.) We then send everything on to them. My sister's husband's family is in Colombia, and they have similar problems, and the same solution.

Not all international orders are fraudulent, although there are some countries that are riskier than others.

WhoaGirl2
QUOTE
Call me crazy, but I could email you a credible picture of me with 3 alien greys, Bigfoot, and a smiling Telly Savalas all wearing plaid skirts in ten minutes time (all holding Am Ex cards with unique numbers).


ROTFLMAO!

Back on the subject, does the order consist of single separate items, or say 5-10 of just a couple of items? The majority of the fraudulent orders I receive look like this:

10 ea Size Large Dressage Tee Shirt
15 ea Sterling Silver Trotting Horse Bracelet
5 ea Sterling Silver Horse Head Brooch

It is rare when anyone orders more than a few of anything, and they are usually sprinkled in with 1 or 2 of a bunch of others. Most people wanting multiple quantities of anything will call or email first asking if there is a discount for large quantities.

This is my Step Number 1 on the fraud determination scale here. I mean, really, who would buy 10 ea of the same size Tee with the same design if they weren't thinking about resale? They have 9 brothers and sisters who all wear size Large?
Parkeryamaha.com
If you have any doubts
Require a wire transfer or Western Union.

Then the cc worries are gone on these type of concerns
vistawholesale
Thanks to everyone who replied.

Well, we googled the address and got a phone number to the address. It is a cargo/shipping company. We called and asked for the person by name. The one person who spoke english asked us to call back Monday and talk to his supervisor. I asked what the company was and they just said call back.

We emailed the buyer and asked them to fill out a credit card authoization form with copy of drivers license and front of CC card. Havent heard back.

Checked around and seems this guy has been placing larger orders all over the internet the past month or so.

Items ordered are in groups of 1,4,6,8,12.

Actual phone number w/ order only goes to an answering machine (although has name of company - Ferodal Limited)
johnj
QUOTE
If you have any doubts
Require a wire transfer or Western Union

Couldn't agree more.
BUT, if you go the wire transfer route, go to your bank and setup a seperate checking account that's only used for incoming wires, and be sure to transfer the money out of that account daily.
The reason I suggest this is people can also wire money out of your account sick.gif, since they have the account number and your bank's routing number. Of course you can reverse such transfers (usually) but not until your bank clears it up.
DO NOT give your normal business checking acount number.

Make sure to ask if there are any bank fees. My bank doesn't charge but some do.
My 2 cents...
cyork
I'd probably cancel the order. Even when a person wire transfers the $ they have (I believe) 7 -10 days to reverse the wire. We are pretty selective about international orders.
Friday we received a suspicious order that was over $2400...called the bank and apparently even though the order was ship to Miami, the card holder is in Costa Rica. He was supposed to call the issuing bank and confirm charges, but the bank has yet to confirm this is good to process.
Fortunately most of our sales are business to business, but here's my usual red flags:
1. There are 3 different names in the transaction a. credit card name, b. email name, c. ship to name
2. Nothing is properly capitalized, either all small letters, or all caps (though not always true) - I always make a personal call on these - if the phone # isn't working they're scammers
3. Overnight shipping is requested; again not always a true indication but a flag to look at the order & confirm that it's genuine.

When we had our first fraud order (that was process & shipped UPS RED), we noticed that within a couple of days, several other fraud orders came over that shipped around the states. Almost like an underground group of people that share a "These people are suckers" list. The common factor, no capitalization of proper nouns...

Now whenever we get fraud orders, we report it to the FBI's internet fraud and then email the "customer" that they've been reported... then we'll go for a long time w/o any fraud attempts.

My rule of thumb is when you're not sure, pass on the deal unless you are in the mood to make a 'donation'

Good Luck -
Cookie
bookmark
QUOTE
When we had our first fraud order (that was process & shipped UPS RED), we noticed that within a couple of days, several other fraud orders came over that shipped around the states. Almost like an underground group of people that share a "These people are suckers" list. The common factor, no capitalization of proper nouns...


We've also noticed that fraudulent attempts come in groups. If we find a suspect order and we wait a few days before cancelling it, many others will start pouring in.

I have found several characteristics that link the fraudulent orders together, sometimes it's the same IP address, a similar email address, mailing addresses in the same city, etc.

In my experience it appears to be the same person trying to get more stuff.

The order we filled doesn't seem to have many similarities to yours aside from the Trinidad/Miami addresses.

We checked out ours and it was for an engineering company with offshore offices in Trinidad, which isn't that uncommon. Plus he ordered only two items - and only one of each.


QUOTE
Now whenever we get fraud orders, we report it to the FBI's internet fraud and then email the "customer" that they've been reported... then we'll go for a long time w/o any fraud attempts.


How do you report them?

I'd love to start doing this. Especially for those that are shipping to an address in the United States. I've heard that the fraudsters have hired people in the US to consolidate their fraudulent orders, and that merchants are not as suspicous of orders shipping within the US. I'd love to nail those people.

QUOTE
The reason I suggest this is people can also wire money out of your account , since they have the account number and your bank's routing number. Of course you can reverse such transfers (usually) but not until your bank clears it up.


Our bank assures us that people can't just take out money from your account. I called their wire transfer department once because I heard that that if we gave out our account number and routing number, all sorts of bad things would happen. Our bank rep promised that it can't happen that easily.

I've heard that Western Union is really the best way to go. Wire transfers have fees attached and (regardless of what my bank says) they may have risks, money orders can be fakes, checks can bounce, credit cards can be stolen. I've never heard of a problem with Western Union.

One more thing: Several times in the past I got stuck when a customer "forgot" to include the wire transfer fee in their payment. Each time they emailed over and over again that they were desperately in need of the products and would send us a money order to cover the difference, but please, please, please send the order right away. Well, the orders were big, I was short only $20, and the the money was on the way (they promised), so I sent the order. In each case, I never received the $20. It's happened three times. Another reason why we don't like to fill international orders.

Another problem with wiring funds is that sometimes banks along the way will take out a percentage for their fees. If a customer orders $100 worth of stuff and you add on a $10 fee that your bank will charge you, sometimes there's another $15 taken out by other banks along the way. That happened to us twice. After that we started adding on additional handling fees for international orders paid for by wire transfer.

Now I'm seriously considering taking the international shipping options off our site.

I think they're more of a hassle than they are worth. We spend a lot of time researching each international order, and then cancelling most of them. Then there's the time spent responding to email inquiries about international shipping, as well.





Parkeryamaha.com
For wire transfers maybe your bank will set up a 2nd acct just for that.
Yes once an acct number and routing number are given out things can happen.
But the 2nd acct can stay almost empty for that reason.

We always inform the customers that THEY will be charged the wire fee and the total dollar amount that needs to be transfered (clearly). And yes also include any fees your bank may charge if they charge you for a wire transfer.

Western Union works and again the fees need to be cleary added to the order.

Overall International orders are hard to do on a good day but hopefully the effort is worth the sale.
cyork
Sorry for the delayed reply about where to report credt card fraud online. Here's a place to go:

File a Report or you can go toSubmit a tip and go from there.

Cheaters never prosper mad.gif even if they temporarily appear to - I just don't like 'donating' to their cause, eventually their karma catches up.

Good luck -
Cookie
bookmark
Thank you for the link, Cookie.

I've added it to my favorites.

I just got a new, interesting order. The IP is in Venezuela, it's a free email address, the billing address is in California (exact match), CVV code is correct, and the order is shipping to Chicago.

I called the credit card company to verify, and the credit card billing name and phone number are incorrect.

Plus, the ship-to phone number doesn't exist.

It's for over $400.

I think this goes in the garbage pile.

danilyn22
Regarding Wire Transfers. When I questioned my bank on the possibility of them taking money out of my account she assured me that in todays world anything is possible but reminded me that for years I was writing my checks which not only had my bank account number and routing number but my name and phone number as well... Same thing I sort of tell my customers who want to buy but don't want to send their cc information over the internet. What is more secure. Sending your credit card info over the internet on an secure site or handing your credit card to an 18 year old waiter or waitress who takes the card away to the back for a good 5 minutes.!!
bookmark
QUOTE
What is more secure. Sending your credit card info over the internet on an secure site or handing your credit card to an 18 year old waiter or waitress who takes the card away to the back for a good 5 minutes.!!


Several years ago I went to Nordstrom at Christmas to do some shopping. The place was a mad house. The clerk took my credit card to ring up my order at another register. I was watching her as she rang up the card and nonchalantly looked around the store while putting my credit card into her pocket.

When she came back, I asked for my card back, and she kept insisting that she already gave it back to me. Grrrrr!

I called her supervisor over and told her that I wanted my credit card back from that girl's back pocket.

The supervisor had her check her pocket, and then kept insisting that it was just an honest mistake.

It sure didn't look like a mistake to me.

johnj
QUOTE
reminded me that for years I was writing my checks which not only had my bank account number and routing number but my name and phone number as well

We were contacted by our bank's fraud dept last year because someone posted an ACH debit to our account. Luckily the bank caught it because they withdrew money (or tried to) from several different account numbers.
Now, when we mail check payments, we use the banks online billpay service. The checks that they produce have our name/address, but have a different account number and a bank rep's signature, not ours. You can never be too careful with this info, especially these days.
I've even started replacing my debit card yearly (oops, I lost it) just so I have a different number . I've worked at too many places that are very careless with their cc files, be it printed receipts with all the details lying around or tons of past card #s on the computer that should have been destroyed. unsure.gif
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